Running With Scissors

I have no comment. Wait, yes I do.


April 7th, 2008

*thinky and meta-y* @ 08:17 pm

Current Psychosis: thoughtful
La la la la...: Del Amitri
Tags:

So, I make no secret of the fact that I'm a big, hokey, non-picky fan of creature-features. Give me stupid monsters tearing up NYC or Tokyo, and if it's enough fun, I'll even look past a zipper up the back. Of course, it's always better when you don't see the zipper up the back, when you can kind of sink yourself into an outlandish world and let it vicariously scare the bejabbers out of you. So, while I can have a whole lot of fun with the old Godzilla Meets Mothra-type movies, I do actually prefer the more well done Alien.

The 1982 version of The Thing has always been one of my all-time favourites. I just got the director's cut DVD last week and watched it on Saturday. I was surprised at how well the FX held up; they're a bit dated, to be sure, and sometimes you can definitely see the 'zipper' (the bit with the head didn't hold up too well, though the punchline directly following still makes me fall on the floor), but all-in-all, the quality of the acting and the story more than made up for any less-than-thrilling visuals.

Now, there's a point here, and I'm coming to it.

Not too long ago, I read the novella, Who Goes There? by John W. Campbell, Jr. (writing under the pseudonym of Don A. Stuart), upon which The Thing is based. My husband, who humours and indulges most of my addictions, found it for me and gave it to me for an early birthday present. I was thrilled, because there are very few stories that are better for me on the screen than on the page; I almost always like the book better. So, I was fully prepared to be blown away by the book. I mean, if I loved the movie that much, the book would be like Manna from Heaven, right?

Er… No.

The book actually sucked. I mean sucked.

The writing style was horrendous, the grammar atrocious, and the dialogue… Oy. Anyone who has ever complained about The Council of Elrond and it's dialogue exposition in LOTR would have a complete cow over this one. It was really and truly awful. And I really wanted to like it.

And it made me think about what makes a good story. Because regardless of crappy writing, the story itself was still good. I mean, I knew the story, have watched the movie times uncounted, and the movie had followed the essense of the book almost to the letter. And as poorly as the story was written, and even though it was telling me nothing new, I was still compelled to keep reading it. I finished the thing, and it really did suck.

I can't be the only person who knows that the writing sucks; plenty of people must have known it sucked when it was first published in 1938 in the pulp magazine Astounding Stories, and yet it was still recognised in 1973 as one of the finest science fiction novellas ever written by the Science Fiction Writers of America and published in The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Volume Two. And the thing is, I read that and part of me boggled (omg, the writing was crapcrapcrap, did you people not notice?), and yet another part of me was fist-pumping, because it's not just a good story -- it's a fucking great story, crappy writing be damned.

So, I have to wonder about these things -- how such a fantastic (by all definitions of the word), creative story could be brought to the page by someone who didn't really have the talent to tell it, and yet he did tell it and obviously effectively. How the story was bigger than its 'vessel', even while it was being conceived. How talent, in this case, almost seems to be a sidenote, because in the end, it really didn't make a whole lot of difference in the survival of the story itself -- it made itself real, gave itself form and life and entwined itself fully into the zeitgeist. It found a way to be told, and even though it was told poorly, it found a way to supercede its humble beginnings -- enough so that a screenwriter created a world for it and a director envisioned that world and populated it with people: actors who helped the audience to believe for a little while that those people were as real as that story. (And this isn't even counting the god-awful 1951 version. Talk about zippers!)

It just amazes me, the organicness of Story. I am unabashedly enthralled that there are these sentient things in the ether that choose an author and demand that author speak for them. And it doesn't really seem to matter that one author could tell that same story in a more grammatically-correct way or conform to the basics of good writing better than another, because perhaps that 'better author' is not the one who should be telling that story: perhaps that 'better author' would not tell that story in a way that would capture the masses and make them pay attention; perhaps -- well, almost certainly, actually -- in the hands of that 'better author', that story would not be the same, and perhaps that difference would mean the very death of that story.

I admit that I have a hard time reconciling all this with my great love of and my enormous respect for good writing. Because there really is nothing that can take me away so well as having a really good story coupled with really good writing. I have always known that I will sometimes read a story that doesn't do much for me, just for the pleasure of sinking into a talented author's words; and now I know I will look past less-than-stellar writing, just for the thrill of the Story.

I think the difference is that, though you can be born with innate talent for writing, to get really good, you have to work for it; a Story just is. I really do believe that an author can choose a story, but a Story must choose its author.

It's not unlike The Thing itself -- analysing a selection of hosts and choosing the one that suits it best, springing itself on us all unaware, throwing us down, getting into our blood, taking us over, making us thrash and snarl until it takes its complete form, and then fighting tooth-and-nail for its own survival if it has to. And in the end, changing us irrevocably, for no other reason than that it is its nature.

You gotta respect something like that. And man oh man, when it jumps you, you gotta pay attention.

I don't know -- makes me feel better about all the 'crap' I've written, even the really old stuff that makes me cringe when I even think about it, let alone re-read it. I don't for one second think anything I've ever done will become part of any culture or sub-culture or even a mote in a reader's subconscious; but particles of it are out there, in the ether, changing and maybe growing and developing, waiting to coalesce and jump someone all unsuspecting.

And I can't wait to read/see/hear the Story that comes of it.
 
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Comments

 
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From:[info]strangerian
Date: April 8th, 2008 06:15 am (UTC)
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Point one, although I'm pretty sure you know this: There are few SF figures more revered than John W. Campbell and even his crappy writing (I'll take your word for it, not having read this particular novella, and, erm, being familiar with accepted "golden age" styles which, erm, are not always contiguous with economic or classically evocative prose) is likely to be perceived as good and lauded via the general halo effect. You'd think SF readers and writers would be more objective and logical about these things, but noooo. SF, the pulp genre, is a religion in practice! Hee. (There are many religions it is *not*, but it has its own shibboleths, of a certainty.)

Point two. SF fans of the 30s and 40s (and 50s and 60s) partly by inclination and partly because there weren't enough counter-examples, took pulp writing style, and techno-over-character writing, and godawful purple prose with crimson puddles, as positive features. Think of fandom and how everybody writes a MarySue at least once and goes overboard with the hurt, the wallow, the comfort, and the three-armed sexual positions, unless they've seen a *lot* of commentary first. (And what really enthusiastic new fan wants to wait? Someone once described it to me as being able to make your own heroin. Too true.) Now think of fandom without English majors. Without spellcheck, even. With no internal mechanism toward improving the writing quality as opposed to the gosh-wow spectacle and kinda-sorta scientific extrapolation. There was gosh-wow. There was spectacle. There was extrapolation like nobody's business in all directions. There was sometimes grammatical accuracy, if not grace, and there was good writing, whatever that means now, only by accident.

(I'm convinced the romance genre has similar problems, in valuing its particular content tropes over anything like good writing as defined outside the romance genre. This doesn't mean there aren't some terrific books by any standard currently labeled as romances -- so many enthusiastic books will include at least some good ones -- but they're not marked out by romance readers, or weren't the last time I was paying attention, around 2000.)

The unbridled speculation, the license to employ fantasy and horror devices by giving them scientific-sounding explanations, bringing them splat into the mundane world instead of exiling them into cliched Gothic mists, had tremendous power. It was a new outbreak of Romance (in the 19th-century artistic sense) dressed and jet-propelled for the 20th century. It was mixed with genuine scientific extrapolation (by Arthur Clarke, for one, and Hal Clement for another example), which could seem a little fuddy-duddy by comparison but gave the whole genre a gloss of occasional respectability -- but still no impetus toward better prose. Writers who did, by nature, have poetic or mainstream-compatible writing styles, like Bradbury, were regarded with suspicion in some quarters. Writing stories about Mars wasn't real SF if it *wasn't* cheap, or at least transparent, prose. (This last is a personal observation about my SF-loving father, who got me starting reading it. He may have been one extreme, but he wasn't off the scale.)

All of which is pretty much in support of what you're saying. The ideas expressed in the SF field overpowered the writing style, overpowered the *need* for any writing style at times. This may be one reason why SF has spread so vociferously into visual media, where more immediate and visceral gosh-wow can be shown, where organic Story doesn't depend on writing as much as story-telling, a slightly different talent. And in either medium, story-telling is a basic human need.
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From:[info]abby_normal
Date: April 8th, 2008 01:29 pm (UTC)
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Gah, I just love when you comment. Excellent, excellent points, every one of them.

RE: Point One -- Yes, I've seen this all over the place, and it's certainly not missing in the fanfic world. Sometimes an author comes through every time and that 'halo' is well-deserved; other times, you kinda look around you at all the people hopping up and down over what you personally think is pretty sub-par and wonder if you're the one who's nuts. (In my case, the answer is usually yeah, probably.)

RE: Point Two -- See, and that's the thing that has me thinking the most: The Thing, when you think about it, really beat the odds, and there is no real way to follow the 'logic' and find out how. It just happened! You start out with this little story (written by someone who would not be called a 'good' writer in the circles that make that sort of determination), published in pulp format, which has never enjoyed what would be considered a 'good' reputation for quality, survived a 1951 ham-fisted attempt to bring it to life on the screen, and a more successflu attempt in 1982, which nevertheless thumped at the box office. And yet, it's still here, it survived, and because of a persistent cult following, is more popular today than it ever was. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? I mean, I'm so glad it does, because I love what this story has become for me, but how does something like this manage to drag itself from the morass of This Never Should Have Succeeded and do it anyway? I just love the absolute unfathomability of that. This is why I believe in Story.

The ideas expressed in the SF field overpowered the writing style, overpowered the *need* for any writing style at times.

This is so extremely well put. And you're right -- there is this huge power involved in things like this, and I think that's what fascinates me the most. Because stories find ways to be told, and if they have enough power -- if they are Stories as opposed to stories -- they find ways to survive, sometimes because of and sometimes despite, but always regardless of how they are told.

(Have I said that I love it when you comment? *grin*)

I don't think I've ever thought of different genres having their own 'accepted' writing styles, but yeah, I think you're absolutely right. A friend of mine is currently attempting to parlay her fanfic talents into the professional Romance writing world, and we've discussed once or twice the things she thinks she'll need to either change or develop in her writing to 'fit' what she does into it. Another friend has gone the professional route (dramatic novel), even came this close (*makes pinchy fingers*) to getting published, but balked at the last because she was told she needed to 'dumb down' the manuscript for public consumption. (Wouldn't want The Masses to have to stop and pick up a dictionary whilst reading, dontcha know.)

So yeah, what you say makes a whole lot of sense. And that brings up a whole new point: what happens to that organic Story when its author has done everything conceivable to give it life in the commonality, and yet is thwarted -- either by lacking the talent to make themselves heard, or by having too much? Does it go back into the ether and take a slightly different form, with a different hand bringing it to a new life? Or does it just fade away, making it merely a story and not a Story? (Things that make ya go, Hmm...)
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From:[info]strangerian
Date: April 12th, 2008 03:51 am (UTC)
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Back after some ruminations. Sorry for the non-internet speed.

The Thing, when you think about it, really beat the odds, and there is no real way to follow the 'logic' and find out how. ...published in pulp format, which has never enjoyed what would be considered a 'good' reputation for quality, survived a 1951 ham-fisted attempt to bring it to life on the screen, and a more successflu attempt in 1982, which nevertheless thumped at the box office. And yet, ...is more popular today than it ever was. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?

There are stories that aren't exactly about people, but about *ourselves* at important moments, and The Thing is undoubtedly one of them. It's told in the splashy, common-denominator story media you list -- each likely to reach a wide popular, if not prestigious, audience of its decade -- because it can survive crude story-telling, and perhaps because it needs strongly marked storytelling to match the depth of its psychological impact. (This reminds me, as far too many things do, of grand opera: music is capable of immense subtlety, but it uses mostly love-death-passion storylines, because music has the emotional punch to make them feel real to an audience.)

what happens to that organic Story when its author has done everything conceivable to give it life in the commonality, and yet is thwarted -- either by lacking the talent to make themselves heard, or by having too much? Does it go back into the ether and take a slightly different form, with a different hand bringing it to a new life? Or does it just fade away, making it merely a story and not a Story?

I'd say that some stories, the really necessary ones, will find their way to many storytellers in different forms, and be told in various forms, until potential tellers of that same story will have seen it and won't need to re-tell it. Some will do it anyway, and their versions may enrich a story or trivialize it. If a talented storyteller loses the chance to put out a good version, we all lose, but it's likely the essential story will find another outlet.

In (partial) defense of publishing, there are certainly stupid editors and also editors who are constrained by stupid policies; but there are good ones as well. It's also fairly evident that the possibilities of e-distribution are shaking things up in a non-trivial way. This makes most traditional publishing entities crazy, with consequent insane rigidity setting in for traditional publishing paths. A few publishers are more graceful about it (I've heard good things about Baen's policies), and the future is likely to be determined by some subset of what is currently a bunch of wild-eyed speculative schemes. At present, nearly anybody can put up anything on the internet, but the question is whether anybody *else* will notice. It is, without an already-organized fandom, a very inefficient way of making something widely known.
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From:[info]abby_normal
Date: April 14th, 2008 02:45 am (UTC)
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Sorry for the non-internet speed.

Ha! Yeah, and I'm my usual faster-than-a-speeding-bullet. *snort*

There are stories that aren't exactly about people, but about *ourselves* at important moments, and The Thing is undoubtedly one of them.

You know, I was just talking about this very thing with a friend last week. And yes, you're absolutely right, and further, it's not just about us but about the stranger without who seeks to become (and in some cases does become) the stranger within. Which is, of course, a concept that definitely captures the masses. And I think the most brilliant thing this story does, in terms of demonstrating the terror of that concept, is to expose the fears of the characters that they themselves may have already been turned and don't even know it.

I'd say that some stories, the really necessary ones, will find their way to many storytellers in different forms, and be told in various forms, until potential tellers of that same story will have seen it and won't need to re-tell it. Some will do it anyway, and their versions may enrich a story or trivialize it. If a talented storyteller loses the chance to put out a good version, we all lose, but it's likely the essential story will find another outlet.

I belive you're right in this; after all, how does it go? There are twleve plots in the world and all stories are simply telling them in different ways? Something like that, anyway. And yes, The Thing, in its most basic form, could easily be defined as one of several different types of typical plots. I guess what really fascinates me is how all of the elements that really push my buttons managed to coalesce in this particular telling of it. And while I look at the source from which it came and kind of purse my lips, at the same time, I'm really glad that source was not beaten into some other form that would have been missing one or several of those buttons. (I hope that made sense.)

In (partial) defense of publishing, there are certainly stupid editors and also editors who are constrained by stupid policies; but there are good ones as well.

I do understand that. And I admit that I have a knee-jerk thing when it comes to the romance genre, mostly because of the prevelant prose style, but also because I have a real problem with women falling in love with their rapists and you really can't avoid that in that particular genre. But yes, it's unfair to generalise and put every writer and editor into the same box. Maybe if I had more time to weed through it and fnd the good stuff, I'd be a little more forgiving.
From:[info]elanor_gardner
Date: April 9th, 2008 07:10 am (UTC)
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You know, this whole concept of the quality of the Story versus the quality of the writing has been on my mind of late. Stranger is absolutely on the money about some genres having more emphasis on the content (Story) way over and above the writing. The best SF was Story + writing, but I recall some from way back that was all about the Story and the Science and very little about the writing. Romance is, sadly, the same, especially in the category romances, but also in the single titles. Now and again someone knocks your socks off, but more frequently you find yourself wondering if the readers REALLY like it that way or the editors just THINK they do. Because I am a reader, and I am rather fed up with it myself.

Your comment about the Story being lost because the writer was not willing to "dumb it down" struck home too. I have been thinking about that a great deal as well. I am hoping that the organic Story wins through and gets told, one way or another. There have been examples recently of Story told with great talent (and intelligence), rewritten with little talent (and horrid style), where the latter got the movie deal and the money, and I think you know of whom I speak. Which "vehicle" conveyed the organic Story to the greater audience? And is that a "good thing", since the vehicle reaching the broader audience is inferior in all aspects?

I suspect the organic Story of having a life of its own. It WILL be heard!!

Can I pimp your meta to Metafandom, or would you rather not?
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From:[info]abby_normal
Date: April 9th, 2008 02:49 pm (UTC)
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You know, this whole concept of the quality of the Story versus the quality of the writing has been on my mind of late.

*grin* I know it has. See? Maybe I caught some of your thoughts floating about in the ether and that's what compelled me to think about this, eh?

...but more frequently you find yourself wondering if the readers REALLY like it that way or the editors just THINK they do.

Well, I think you already know my opinion on this, but yeah, I think it's the short-sightedness of the editors and their low opinions of the intelligence of the readers. Because I would honestly have nothing against romance as a genre, if it weren't filled with such crap writing. And it annoys me that there are a few out there who write it well and yet I'll never see their work because editors are so convinced I like the crap and so that's all they'll give me. It's why I back away slowly, waving garlic and crucifixes at the genre as a whole. And I like love stories.

But that makes me wonder: why am I so willing to forgive the crap writing in sci-fi, and yet completely intolerant of it in romance? (*gets thinky again*)

Which "vehicle" conveyed the organic Story to the greater audience? And is that a "good thing", since the vehicle reaching the broader audience is inferior in all aspects?

And that's really the crux of all my questions. Mostly because I hate the idea of missing out on something that could really blow me away, and all because of an ill-fated blue pencil edit by some yahoo editor who thinks I'm not smart enough to grasp what the author is trying to say. I would rather think that the Story would somehow will out in a case like that; that it would be beyond someone diddling about with its original form and keep its essense. Because as much as I shook my head as I read that novella, I was still glad that it hadn't been re-written to death, to either 'dumb it down' or to shape the writing into something more accepted as 'good'. Because what might it have lost in that diddling, you know?

I suspect the organic Story of having a life of its own. It WILL be heard!!

I don't think I can ever know if that's right or wrong, but yeah, it's what I choose to believe. Because the alternative is a little depressing. ;)

Can I pimp your meta to Metafandom...?

Um... Well, I can't deny I'd like to see more opinions and theories on this, if someone is willing to offer them. Yeah, why not? I'll unlock it.
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From:[info]strangerian
Date: April 12th, 2008 04:27 am (UTC)
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Sigh, on the state of Certain Genres.

But that makes me wonder: why am I so willing to forgive the crap writing in sci-fi, and yet completely intolerant of it in romance?

For me (other readers' mileage may vary), maybe it's because there's something valuable in badly-written-good-SF that's orthogonal to writing quality, such as an explication of how the inhuman, physical universe works, or could work under certain conditions. I'm not quite educated enough to be a science geek, but sure could play one on TV. For example, Ringworld, although it's a lot smoother than the Golden Age purple-prose era, has about the same human content, particularly about women, as the average action movie. Enlightening on human matters, ho-hum, not so much. But as a story set in the larger physical universe (or based on alien concepts), wow.

Romance, on the other hand, is (as a market genre) defined by a particular human relationship plotline. It can be done well or badly or sometimes sideways, but that's the content. Varied human relationships, including m/f attraction, are pretty much what "literature" fiction is about too. Genre romance doesn't have an exclusive feature (except predictability) not found in the rest of the library.
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From:[info]abby_normal
Date: April 14th, 2008 03:06 am (UTC)
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I think you may well have hit it with this comment. Because you're right -- badly done prose describing another planet, and the society and technology there, is still telling a reader something they've never seen before; love stories, on the other hand, seem... I guess I would say more limited. I think the best a traditional love story could offer a reader in terms of something new would be in the characterisation vein. Which, honestly, is what really attracts me to stories. I don't mind reading the same old plot, if the characterisations give me something to really care about.

But I think that's one of the interesting things I've discovered in thinking about and discussing this -- I don't think I ever realised that I would sacrifice characterisation and writing for Story. And it tells me that no matter what my preferences are in what I choose to read, Story is what actually counts, because after the words have faded or the screen has gone blank, that's what resonates for me. And I'm kinda pleased about that.
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From:[info]mews
Date: April 14th, 2008 02:09 am (UTC)
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Wow, what a great discussion. I read all the comments and replies and it makes my head spin. I haven't read "Who Goes There," but I can imagine the writing is execrable. Quite a lot of the fiction written in the thirties and forties, even the fifties, would seem highly overwrought to modern readers. Some of the more modern writers aren't all that much better at characterization or dialogue, but start with an idea whose time has come.

Stephen King wrote about a national consciousness, I believe, one shared by all the people of a nation that is influenced by events in the wider world. It may not happen as much now, when our population is so much more diverse than it used to be, and we have the internet to put us in touch with people from all over the world, so that our perceptions and our feelings are influenced by other cultures. But in the fifties, sixties, seventies and early eighties, it happened more easily because there were more of us who were from similar backgrounds.

The first movie made from the novella was made at a time when Americans were afraid of the soviet countries, who posed a real threat, at least in our national consciousness. The second world war hadn't ended all that long ago, and our former allies were suddenly ravening wolves who wanted to wipe us out, destroy our freedom and turn us all into communists. In that climate of fear and dread of "aliens", "The Thing" let us put a face on that fear. It was a huge, hulking, murderous alien, and all that stood between it and our way of life were the brave men of the military who were up there in the frozen north, keeping watch for him and guys like him (read Russians, Germans, and Japanese.) And of course, they wiped him out and saved the world for Democracy.

The second movie came along when Americans were paranoid about what was happening to our own country, and afraid of drugs, sex, and rock and roll. Afraid of their own offspring. In our subconscious minds, we believed our children must have been taken over by some alien force. And, I'll be damned, there it was, up on the movie screen, turning ordinary scientists, (some a little goofy, it's true) but this thing turned them into alien monsters who looked like human beings, but weren't. And it could take over anybody. Your neighbor. Your dog. Your kid. Paranoia made flesh.

"The Exorcist" was another movie that played on national paranoia about what was happening to our children. I remember being terrified and amazed by that film, and I was an avid fan of horror fiction and movies, had been since I saw Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman, when I was 12. But most ordinary people weren't fans of the genre, so when they saw The Exorcist or The Thing, or read the books, it was a new experience, like having a bomb go off with them at ground zero. Their minds were blown.

Stories happen when the time is right, and the same story keeps being discovered by different people, when the time comes around again for it to reach in and touch that national consciousness. And it doesn't seem to have much to do with the quality of the writing, as witness Michael Crichton, who bores me to tears. It's the story that matters.

Or maybe I'm full of shit. But that's how it seems to me.
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From:[info]strangerian
Date: April 14th, 2008 04:22 am (UTC)
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Yes yes. The points you make about The Thing movies in particular are excellent examples of that general principle, that movies or stories that really grab us, set the hooks via something that's current and important to us. SF or fantasy movies can do it stealthily, so that we don't see it coming until the message hits us whole, maybe days or weeks after leaving the theater, and it has a much stronger impact in the end. (I've seen similar analysis about Alien as being about fear of cancer, although the sequel(s) each had a different flavor. And LotR as speaking to an immediately post-9/11 mindset.) I don't know if it's really "national," as much as cultural, but any nation has a lot of culture in common. That's probably hair-slicing; the main thought you give is the important part.
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From:[info]mews
Date: April 14th, 2008 07:33 pm (UTC)
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Yes, you're right. Cultural was the word I was searching for. I mentioned it in my reply to Carol that if the message is blatant people won't be moved by it the way they are if it's subliminal. It's the one that slips into our minds like a wisp of smoke that affects us most deeply. As you said, we don't even realize it's getting in, but we find we can't forget the story, even if it isn't told expertly.

Alien pushed a lot of buttons for a lot of people. That's what the best stories do. They find those hidden fears inside us, zero in, and then push the buttons that set them pacing their cages. I found that Alien aroused my claustrophobia in a major way. I'm sure that's a pretty common fear, and it's probably cross-cultural too. I believe it's fear of the grave, or of a coffin, though we mostly can't face that dead-square, so we say it's a fear of small spaces. But that's just a safe name for death. Most fears, at their root, play on that huge, inescapable fear that so many humans share.

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From:[info]abby_normal
Date: April 14th, 2008 02:25 pm (UTC)
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Ooooh, how very interesting! Lots of great points here.

I guess I never really think about the social commentary in movies, unless it's pointed out to me or so obvious that I can't help but miss it. (And actually, if it's the latter, I probably tend to roll my eyes at having someone else's morality shoved down my throat in the form of 'entertainment'.) So, I never really analysed this in the way you have, and I think it's really interesting. I don't think I was terribly susceptible to 'the message' (if one was intended or understood) in The Thing, for instance, because I wasn't even 18 yet when I first saw it and would not have had those sorts of fears you mentioned; but I have no doubt that those a generation or more older than I was might have had some sort of attraction for that 'message' in the movie and might not have even realised why. Which does sort of reel one into one's own mind a little -- do I like Juno because it was a nice story, done senstively and superbly acted, or does it resonate with something deeper in me because I happen to have teenagers and teen-prgnancy is always a worry, no matter how 'well' parents raise their children?

(See, you guys keep bringing up all these thinky points!)

You bring up another good point with the 'national consciousness' thing, and I've been circling around that for quite some time, in different forms. Because I think I might take it a step farther and speculate on a 'world consciousness' or even a 'human consciousness'. I believe it was Stephen King also who proposed that the idea of God coalesced because of the basic human need to believe that there is Someone out there, keeping an eye on us, and that there is something for us after we're done here; and the idea became such a common theme in human existence that, if there was no God before it, we basically invented Him through our shared consciousness, and made Him real. That we don't get our humanity from Him, but He gets His from us.

Which brings us back again to the idea of Story, eh? Perhaps, as you say, a Story will be told when the time is right -- but perhaps that Story forms because the 'human consciousness' really needs it at that time; perhaps a story is not as dependent upon the timing to become a Story, but the timing demands that Story through the 'awareness' of the zeitgiest.

Gah, getting all esoteric again. Somebody stop her!
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From:[info]mews
Date: April 14th, 2008 02:46 pm (UTC)
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I think in order for the story to be effective, the message has to be really well disguised, so that we don't consciously perceive it at all.

It's something that happens way down inside, below the level of conscious perceptions, and it makes us uneasy without our knowing why, or even realizing that we are uneasy. It creates excitement and makes us want to talk about it with other people, and that's why it gets discussed in the office around the water cooler, and in the media, and all kinds of experts try to analyze it and explain why it strikes a chord with so many people. If you pull it apart and discuss it enough, eventually you can ease that discomfort, even if you never really get to the meat of why it affects us so strongly.

That's why some horror stories work so well. They speak to many of us, they scare us, mostly with improbably scenarios that represent fears we don't even want to know we have, and they let us deal with them. And most of those fears are common to a lot of people. Fear of illness, fear of being alone, fear of strangers, and fear of death, the unknown. It all happens in a place so deep inside us, we aren't even aware it exists most of the time. If we were, we probably couldn't go on living. We'd just curl into a ball and try to escape by going catatonic.



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From:[info]strangerian
Date: April 15th, 2008 03:17 am (UTC)
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I totally agree with Stephen King here. I was thinking this years ago, that people need to believe in something, and find a god for the purposes. (Not going to worry that King published first. He probably said it better than I could, anyway.) I think it's related to the Jungian theory of a collective unconscious, from which spring all myths, which explains why they're so similar. This was taking it too far for me -- people come up with broadly similar solutions to similar emotional problems, all being homo sapiens. Maybe that's what Jung really meant, but translations all imply a *shared* unconscious, and I back away from what I perceive as woo-woo, and just take the useful parts. (From just brushing the fringes of turn-of-19th-century psychology, when the science of it was emerging, I see a lot of interesting, useful concepts jumbled together with obvious nonsense that appears to be based on pet theories gone overboard and on assumptions of the European culture at the time.)

I'd say that members of a group, a culture or nation or whatever, make story the same way they'd make god, in putting together something that speaks to them, only they're a little more in control of Story. The Muses and general association of storytelling and drama with gods and madmen are probably not accidental, however.
From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 11th, 2008 12:14 pm (UTC)
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I agree with most things that have already been said here, so I won’t be repeating them, but I have a different opinion about the question “why Sci Fi stories can have a bad writing and yet we like them? And why romance (love) stories need to have a good writing or else we don’t like them at all?”

I believe that big things are very simple when you look at their depths, although we humans tend to see them as very complicated. And I think that in the case of a story it’s simple too. In my opinion, Sci Fi stories can have a bad writing because they speak to our brain and romance stories need a good writing because we need to feel it, they talk to our heart. The difference is that Sci Fi stories are made to be thought about, we don’t need to see ourselves in the characters to understand what fear is or to see an alien or a droid when it is presented to us. But on the contrary, romance stories are made to be felt, and one can’t feel anything written in a bad style. Romance stories talk about feelings and the style is important because it’s the door to those. It’s like trying to listen to music from an old radio receiver: there is so much noise that you can’t hear the music there.

As for Stories, I think they are important because they are able to talk to our brain and our heart both, and when we read one of them, it’s like music, we feel it vibrating inside our body, it reaches our soul. I think that each story can become a Story depending of who reads it. We all know people who have read what we think it’s a Story and on the contrary, they are not touched by it’s magic. I think it depends on the reader, not on the Story itself. In this sense, stories are alive because as we change and grow in experience and knowledge, a story can become a Story, they change with us and I find this fascinating. I think a story begs to be written when the time comes for it and it finds the way to become real. Whether it becomes a Story or not depends on it’s readers.
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From:[info]abby_normal
Date: May 19th, 2008 09:45 pm (UTC)
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I think you've made some really excellent points here, and I hadn't thought about them in just that way until you articulated them. Yes, absolutely, it's certainly easier to feel something that's trying to address your heart when it's written in such a way to elicit those feelings.

I absolute love the commentary on Story, because yes, all of you needs to be engaged, doesn't it? And it's an individual thing, whether a story will engage one person and become a Story for them, but fail to engage another and remain a story. That's a really excellent point, but I think what has me fascinated about it is that there are those Stories that engage The Masses, and for reasons that are sometimes undefinable and esoteric -- that's what makes my wheels spin. Because, to get back the the original example -- The Thing -- whether I, as an individual, happened to like it or not, it became a Story, for all its source's faults, and there was nothing in that original source (trust me on this) that would engage the 'heart' of a reader. So, I think your logic is very nearly perfect, but just a titch away from complete.

I don't know -- maybe a better word, rather than 'heart', might be consciousness? No, that doesn't quite fit, either. But there's something here and I;m not quite getting it yet. Need to ruminate.

:)
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From:[info]primwood
Date: November 18th, 2008 10:22 am (UTC)
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Hi Abby, you don't know me (I don't think), but since we've been thrown out of LJ this morning, I'm here at IJ. I ran across your comment to someone else, and I was exploring your journal here.

Anyway, this was an interesting entry. I don't know the story of which you write, but it is very true that being able to put together a story that is grammatically correct or has good dialogue is no guarantee that the story will be compelling. It almost does seem as if the muses touch someone with a story and guide them to write it. Thank goodness those writers who have less than stellar skillz still write. I think that's why I don't get too hung up over people who have poor grammar, etc. If it's a good story, then bless them for writing it anyway.

I shall friend you here, if you don't mind. : )
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From:[info]abby_normal
Date: November 18th, 2008 10:29 pm (UTC)
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Hullo, Prim, and thank you for dropping by.

I think you articulated something here that no one else did, and that is that yes, thank the heavens for those who maybe don't quite 'hit it' with grammar, etc., but nonetheless manage to blow the reader away with a Story. I've read plenty of things in my life, even professional novels, and thought, Geez, I could write better than this, but still felt compelled to keep reading because the tale was so good. And perhaps those things won't ever become part of the culture, but some small part of them might begin a thread of thought for another story which will.

I think any story, regardless of how it's written, is certainly worth something, even if that worth is not readily or tangibly identifiable.

Thanks for your comment, Prim. This is a subject of which I will never tire. ;)

Running With Scissors

I have no comment. Wait, yes I do.